Autor Wątek:  EU07 double traction - compressors  (Przeczytany 1898 razy)

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Offline DB-47

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EU07 double traction - compressors
« dnia: 06 Lutego 2022, 14:46:21 »
Hello everyone,

I have question or possible bug report for one certain behaviour when having double traction of EU07s. I have this consist EU07-477+EU07-1512+cargo wagons. After I unbraked trainset, I noticed after pressure drop in main reservoir, that only front locomotive's (EU07-477) compressor got running while second one's (EU07-1512) remained unactive as can be seen on provided screenshots (EU07-477 ... C and EU07-1512 ... c!) However when I had manually disabled compressor and had switched it on back after pressure dropped below 7,5 bar, both compressors started to run. The same behaviour I have also observed on ET42 (easily replicable), 2xEP05 and other EU07 derivates (EP07,EP08).

Does this behavior reflect the real world's behavior?

Best regards,
DB-47
« Ostatnia zmiana: 06 Lutego 2022, 14:47:58 wysłana przez DB-47 »

Offline Sojkolek

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #1 dnia: 07 Lutego 2022, 21:17:15 »
Hi!
Did you ticked "Connector" option in "depot"?
Hjusarz

Offline Stele

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #2 dnia: 07 Lutego 2022, 21:26:16 »
He did. There is [103] coupler flag on first screen.
Now I don't remember what exactly those exclamation marks acter "c" ment. In one time that was just preassure switch while in other cases that was fuse indicator. In first case, they might look only on local supply tank preassure and use only air from lead loco. In second case, fuse went off on second loko and you'd have to switch to it and reset it locally.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 07 Lutego 2022, 21:46:06 wysłana przez Stele »
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Offline Farmadupe

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #3 dnia: 09 Lutego 2022, 20:20:00 »
If I read the source code correctly, in the case of 2EU07, each locomotive will look only at its own main reservoir pressure when it decides when to activate the compressor. (Although if the locomotives are permanently coupled, then both compressors should activate at the same time?)

So assuming that only the first locomotive is supplying air into the brake pipe (and the brake handle of the second locomotive is in lockout position), I think it is possible that the main reservoir of the first locomotive will have slightly lower pressure, so the compressor of the first locomotive will activate and fill up the main reservoir of the second locomotive before the pressure gets low in the second locomotive.

« Ostatnia zmiana: 09 Lutego 2022, 22:26:15 wysłana przez Farmadupe »

Offline Farmadupe

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #4 dnia: 09 Lutego 2022, 20:51:52 »
I think the behaviour in real life may be different to Maszyna, it seems that there are several signals in the multiple unit connector related to compressor operation, including the pressure sensor "PG".

However to understand the correct logic I think it may be necessary to look at a relay diagram.

Offline Farmadupe

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #5 dnia: 09 Lutego 2022, 22:20:58 »
I found a relay diagram for EU07 main compressor. Unfortunately I am not very good at reading relay diagrams, and the author of this diagram accidentally made the box on the bottom right too small to fit some long words, so it is hard for me to use google translate, but I think The compressor will run when current flows in the red path, which requires only the following condition

* SS1 - all contacts in the yellow path are closed

Condition SS1 is true when:
* WSC - Main compressor switch is engaged (I think this is the switch in the cabin?)
* WDC1 - I don't understand this symbol, google translate says "Switch Compressor Main"
* WR - The rapid-disconnect 3kv switch is engaged
* WCC or WDC - WCC=Low pressure in the main reservoir, I do not understand WDC
* PWS - I don't understand this switch - Some condition to disengage the compressor
* WDC3 - I don't understand this symbol
* NS01 - There is no overcurrent condition in the red path
* PPT5 - I think this is true when the compressor has been demanded for a longer than the time threshold in relay PT5? But this is hard for me to understand.

Interestingly, I think this diagram does not include the multiple unit connector, so perhaps it does not answer your question.

P.S. It is difficult to correlate the relay names in the book by Maciszewski, Pawlus and Suminski with the diagram in the attachment. I am wondering if this is because the diagrams in the Maciszewski book are sourced from EU06 production (English Acronyms) but later EU07 has redesigned/redrawn relay network (with polish acronyms?)
« Ostatnia zmiana: 09 Lutego 2022, 22:22:59 wysłana przez Farmadupe »

Offline DB-47

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #6 dnia: 10 Lutego 2022, 13:18:34 »
Hello thanks for your updates and efforts with translating into english.

I connected multiple unit steering cable between both EU07 locomotives. Otherwise I would have missed half of tractive force :D

My hypothesis was also that sudden loss of pressure in main reservoir (in my case as a result of unbraking trainset using high pressure pulse into brake pipe), which drained faster main reservoir on front locomotive than on rear locomotive and it triggered front locomotive's pressure sensor which turned on compressor, but rear locomotive's main reservoir never got below 7,5 bar and for that reason compressor on second locomotive remained inactive. But when I turned off compressors using C key, let the pressure drop below 7,5 bar for instance down to 5,5 bar and turned on again compressors by using C key, both compressors started to operate until 8,5 bar was reached. Sometimes when air pressure drop is very slow, for instance brake is set to running mode - 5 bar for long time and trainset is short, then both locomotives reservoir reach 7,5 bar threshold at same time and it works as designed in real life (probably?)

I assumed that multiple steering ("Sterowanie ukrotnione" in PL or in CZ "Mnohočlenné řízení") overrides pressure sensor on B locomotive and only sensor from A locomotive decides, if compressor should run or not. Simply said, that what does locomotive A, also does locomotive B with few exceptions. However when I submitted this question to Czech FB group "Strojvedoucí" I was given this answer "U EU07 ve dvojici každá sama podle tlakového spínače." (Each locomotive switches the compressor independently according to its pressure sensor) So in case of EU07 this seems to be working as designed, but in case of ET42 this seems to me as legit bug

« Ostatnia zmiana: 10 Lutego 2022, 14:19:52 wysłana przez DB-47 »

Offline DB-47

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #7 dnia: 10 Lutego 2022, 13:27:14 »
He did. There is [103] coupler flag on first screen.
Now I don't remember what exactly those exclamation marks acter "c" ment. In one time that was just preassure switch while in other cases that was fuse indicator. In first case, they might look only on local supply tank preassure and use only air from lead loco. In second case, fuse went off on second loko and you'd have to switch to it and reset it locally.

What I noticed that in vehicles devices compressor has those indicators, C means compressors are enabled and running, c! compressor is enabled, but pressure relay keeps it off and . means that compressor is disabled.

Offline Milek7

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #8 dnia: 10 Lutego 2022, 14:05:59 »
* WSC - Main compressor switch is engaged (I think this is the switch in the cabin?)
* WDC1 - I don't understand this symbol, google translate says "Switch Compressor Main"
* WR - The rapid-disconnect 3kv switch is engaged
* WCC or WDC - WCC=Low pressure in the main reservoir, I do not understand WDC
* PWS - I don't understand this switch - Some condition to disengage the compressor
* WDC3 - I don't understand this symbol
* NSO1 - There is no overcurrent condition in the red path
* PPT5 - I think this is true when the compressor has been demanded for a longer than the time threshold in relay PT5? But this is hard for me to understand.
WSC - circuit breaker (in the cabin fusebox)
WDC1-4 - compressor enable switches
WR - cabin activation circuitry
WCC - pressure switch
WDC - pressure switch override
PWS - compressor selection switch
NS01 - overcurrent relay contact
NSB1 - overcurrent sensor override
PPT5 - timed relay contact (closes circuit during startup when SS1 is not yet closed and overrides overcurrent sensor)

Interestingly, I think this diagram does not include the multiple unit connector, so perhaps it does not answer your question.
Control cables are marked with semicircle symbol, on this image C19 and CI.
I am wondering if this is because the diagrams in the Maciszewski book are sourced from EU06 production (English Acronyms) but later EU07 has redesigned/redrawn relay network (with polish acronyms?)
Possibly book refers to 4E version, while schematic you posted is from 303E.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 10 Lutego 2022, 17:16:18 wysłana przez Milek7 »

Offline Farmadupe

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #9 dnia: 10 Lutego 2022, 18:09:53 »
Thankyou for the detailed translation!

Cytuj
Control cables are marked with semicircle symbol, on this image C19 and CI.

I think this means that when 2 EU07 are connected in multiple, and cable C19 is shared, then the two compressors should always activate pairs? Which I think will confirm that Maszyna has a bug.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 10 Lutego 2022, 18:11:56 wysłana przez Farmadupe »

Offline borys_q

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #10 dnia: 16 Lutego 2022, 09:50:47 »
In real world you can not connect this locos with multiple steering cables. 477 is type 303E and 1512 is type 303Eb.

Offline jakisrandomowynoob

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Odp: EU07 double traction - compressors
« Odpowiedź #11 dnia: 16 Lutego 2022, 11:29:19 »
Well in the cab of 303Eb it is said "Jazda wielokrotna dopuszczona dla lok. EU07 od numeru 301", which translates roughly to "Multiple unit operation allowed for EU07 locomotives with numbers from 301 up", so using a -15XX with an unmodernised version is either allowed, or the sign in the locomotive shows false information, idk.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 16 Lutego 2022, 11:31:47 wysłana przez jakisrandomowynoob »
Staram się, ale pewnie coś zepsuję po drodze. Może się na coś przydam. Obecny projekt: dekoracja EC Dobre.